sa国际传媒� sa国际传媒� is a hard act to follow. Todd Phillipssa国际传媒� dark, Scorsese-inspired character study about the Batman villain made over a billion dollars at the box office, , dominated the cultural discourse for months and created a new movie landmark.

It wasnsa国际传媒檛 for everyone, but it got under peoplesa国际传媒檚 skin.

Knowing that it was a foolsa国际传媒檚 errand to try to do it again, Phillips and Phoenix pivoted, or rather, pirouetted into what would become sa国际传媒� .sa国际传媒� The dark and fantastical musical journey goes deeper into the mind of Arthur Fleck as he awaits trial for murder and falls in love with a fellow Arkham inmate, Lee, played by Lady Gaga. There is singing, dancing and mayhem.

If Phillips and Phoenix have learned anything over the years, itsa国际传媒檚 that the scarier something is, the better. So once again they rebelled against expectations and went for broke with something thatsa国际传媒檚 already sharply divided critics.

As with the first, audiences will get to decide for themselves when it opens in theaters on Oct. 4.

sa国际传媒淗OW ARE YOU GOING TO GET JOAQUIN PHOENIX TO DO A SEQUEL?sa国际传媒�

Any comic book movie that makes a billion dollars is going to have the sequel talk. But with sa国际传媒淛okersa国际传媒� it was never a given that it would go anywhere: Joaquin Phoenix doesnsa国际传媒檛 do sequels. Yet it turned out, Phoenix wasnsa国际传媒檛 quite done with Arthur Fleck yet either.

During the first, the actor wondered what this character would look like in different situations. He and the on-set photographer mocked up classic movie posters, like sa国际传媒淥ne Flew Over the Cuckoosa国际传媒檚 Nestsa国际传媒� and sa国际传媒淵entlsa国际传媒� with the Joker in them and showed them to Phillips.

sa国际传媒淪ometimes yousa国际传媒檙e just done with something and other times you have an ongoing interest,sa国际传媒� Phoenix said. sa国际传媒淭here was just more to explore. sa国际传媒� I just felt like we werensa国际传媒檛 done.sa国际传媒�

So Phillips and his co-writer Scott Silver got to work on a new script, one that leaned into the music in Arthur Flecksa国际传媒檚 head. Then his dreary Arkham life turns to Technicolor when he meets and falls for Lee, a Joker superfan.

sa国际传媒淛oaquin Phoenix is not going to do a line drive. Hesa国际传媒檚 not going to do something thatsa国际传媒檚 fan service,sa国际传媒� Phillips said. sa国际传媒淗e wanted to be as scared as he was with the first movie. So, we tried to make something that is as audacious and out there and hopefully people get it.sa国际传媒�

LADY GAGA FINDS LEEsa国际传媒橲 VOICE, AND LOSES HER OWN

One decision thatsa国际传媒檚 already sparking debate is casting someone with a voice like Lady Gagasa国际传媒檚 and not using that instrument to its full power. Phillips, who was a producer on sa国际传媒淎 Star is Born,sa国际传媒� wanted someone who sa国际传媒渂rought music with them.sa国际传媒� But Lee isnsa国际传媒檛 a singer.

sa国际传媒淪inging is so second nature to me, and making music and performing on stage is so inside of me. Especially this music,sa国际传媒� Gaga said. sa国际传媒淚 worked extensively on untraining myself for this movie and throwing away as much as I could all the time to make sure I was never locking into what I do. I had to really kind of erase it all.sa国际传媒�

Phoenix, who wasnsa国际传媒檛 quite sure what it would be like working with someone who has such a larger-than-life superstar persona, found Gaga to be refreshingly unpretentious and available. And as an actor, he admired her commitment to the character.

sa国际传媒淗er power is in singing and singing a particular way,sa国际传媒� he said. sa国际传媒淔or her to sacrifice that through character, to do something that people would call a musical, but to not be performing it in the way that would sound best as a singer but to approach it from the character was a very difficult process. I was really impressed with her willingness to do that.sa国际传媒�

In addition to writing a sa国际传媒渨altz that falls apartsa国际传媒� for the film, Gaga is releasing a companion album, sa国际传媒淗arlequinsa国际传媒� on Friday with song titles including sa国际传媒淥h, When the Saints,sa国际传媒� sa国际传媒淲orld on a String,sa国际传媒� sa国际传媒淚f My Friends Could See Me Nowsa国际传媒� and sa国际传媒淭hatsa国际传媒檚 Life.sa国际传媒�

SORRY PUDDINsa国际传媒�, THIS AINsa国际传媒橳 MARGOT ROBBIEsa国际传媒橲 HARLEY QUINN

Much like Phoenixsa国际传媒檚 Joker isnsa国际传媒檛 Heath Ledgersa国际传媒檚 or Jack Nicholsonsa国际传媒檚, Gagasa国际传媒檚 Lee is not the

sa国际传媒淲esa国际传媒檙e never going to outdo what Margot Robbie did,sa国际传媒� Phillips said. sa国际传媒淵ou have to do something 180 degrees in the other direction.sa国际传媒�

Sure, Lee will still casually light something on fire to get some time alone with Joker, but the tumult is more internal. And Gaga threw herself into making Lee something new: A real person, grounded in a reality that came before her.

sa国际传媒淚 spent a lot of my time on developing her inner life (which) for me had a lot to do with her storm and what thing was always making her about to explode,sa国际传媒� Gaga said. sa国际传媒淭heresa国际传媒檚 a particular kind of danger that she carries with her, but itsa国际传媒檚 inside and itsa国际传媒檚 kind of explosive.sa国际传媒�

sa国际传媒淒O YOU JUST WANT A BRUTE?sa国际传媒�

Brendan Gleeson didnsa国际传媒檛 have much hesitation about joining the ensemble. Hesa国际传媒檇 worked with Phoenix before on sa国际传媒淭he Villagesa国际传媒� and was in awe of what hesa国际传媒檇 done on the first movie.

sa国际传媒淗e has an absolute relentless integrity and curiosity and drive,sa国际传媒� Gleeson said. sa国际传媒淗e wonsa国际传媒檛 just plough the same furrow for its own sake.sa国际传媒�

But he also didnsa国际传媒檛 want to play the simple version of an Arkham prison guard.

sa国际传媒淚 said, look, do you just want a brute? Because Isa国际传媒檓 not sure I just want to do a brute,sa国际传媒� Gleeson said. sa国际传媒淗e wanted something more. We tried to find layers in this guy.sa国际传媒�

CREATING MAYHEM

Anyone who has worked with Phoenix knows that he likes to keep things fresh. That may mean something as small as changing the location of a prop or as big as throwing out choreography that yousa国际传媒檝e been rehearsing for months at the last minute.

sa国际传媒淚 think we both love mayhem and not just in movies but on the set,sa国际传媒� Phillips said. sa国际传媒淚t had to feel like anything can happen.sa国际传媒�

With the crew 95% the same as the first, everyone was ready to be flexible. Gaga, too, dove right in, suggesting that they sing live on camera.

sa国际传媒淚t changed the whole making of the film,sa国际传媒� Phillips said. sa国际传媒淲e were not only singing live, we were singing live differently every take.sa国际传媒�

THATsa国际传媒橲 ENTERTAINMENT?

Since Arthur killed Robert De Nirosa国际传媒檚 talk show host Murray Franklin on live television in the first film, hesa国际传媒檚 become a kind of icon and curiosity thanks in no small part to an oft referenced, but never seen, television movie that was made about him. Now, the trial is going to be televised as well.

sa国际传媒淯nderneath it all, theresa国际传媒檚 this idea of corruption and how everything is corrupt in the system, from the prison system to the judicial system to the idea of entertainment, quite frankly,sa国际传媒� Phillips said. sa国际传媒淭his idea that in the States at least, everything is entertainment. A court trial could be entertainment, and a presidential election can be entertainment. So, if thatsa国际传媒檚 true, what is entertainment?sa国际传媒�

NO LONGER A COMPLETE WILD CARD

Itsa国际传媒檚 easier to be to the insurgent, not the incumbent, Phillips said. Although a Joker film is never going to fly completely under the radar, the spotlight is undoubtedly more intense this time around.

sa国际传媒淵ou do feel like you have a larger target on your back,sa国际传媒� Phillips said.

While much of the film was made on Warner Bros. soundstages in Los Angeles, the production did go back to New York to film again on the Bronx staircase (which now come up on Google Maps as the Joker Stairs) and outside a Manhattan courthouse. The production staged a massive protest scene, with Gaga, almost concurrently with the as if there werensa国际传媒檛 enough eyes on them already.

Some are also handwringing about the sequelsa国际传媒檚 bigger budget and whether it can match the success of the first. But Phillips has learned to take it in stride.

sa国际传媒淭heresa国际传媒檚 a different amount of pressure, but that just comes with making movies,sa国际传媒� he said. sa国际传媒淵ou cansa国际传媒檛 please everybody and you just kind of go for it.sa国际传媒�

Gleeson has an even sunnier outlook.

sa国际传媒淚t has kind of arthouse movie integrity on a blockbuster scale. Itsa国际传媒檚 great news for cinema, is the way I look on it,sa国际传媒� Gleeson said. sa国际传媒淚f these event movies can continue to have depth and can be so conflicting like this one, is we neednsa国际传媒檛 worry about the future of cinema.sa国际传媒�

SO, IS IT A MUSICAL?

One thing Phillips didnsa国际传媒檛 mean to do was ignite a discourse about what is and isnsa国际传媒檛 a musical. Hesa国际传媒檚 just trying to manage expectations.

sa国际传媒淧eople go, sa国际传媒榳hat do you mean itsa国际传媒檚 not a musical?sa国际传媒� And it is a musical. It has all the elements of a musical. But I guess what I mean by it is all the musicals Isa国际传媒檝e seen leave me happy at the end for the most part, sa国际传媒楿mbrellas of Cherbourgsa国际传媒� not being one of them. This has so much sadness in it that I just didnsa国际传媒檛 want to be misleading to people.sa国际传媒�